Holden V8 5.0L Upgrade Options – Pros & Cons

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

Hey all, I’ve got a stock VS Senator 5.0L with the original motor and almost 200,000km on the clock. It drives well, but I am continually thinking about what the best ‘upgrade strategy’ would be. Would like to get 200-300rwkw – realise it will prob cost $10-15k. These are the options I have come up with, and looking for any advice from anyone who has done one of these.

What would you do if you want more power from stock VS Senator?

1) 5.7L stroker with mild upgrade – how hard it this? know enough to know it aint just a crank / rod / piston swap.

2) 5.0L strong rebuild with supercharger kit – build with extra strong bottom end. Keep standard compression so can bump up boost/intercooler later on.

Options I are not as keen on:

3) Traditional high compression, big cam, etc – In the search for power, reliability, fuel economy and driveability go out the window – BUT want to hear from anyone who has gone down this path.

4) LS swap – after reading Gary/VRSenator065 posts, I think that is alot of work with easy cost blow outs, but I agree – it would be the best outcome!

5) anything else?

I have built engines, swapped out engines, etc before, but don’t have a garage that you can work in, like I used to :( so will mostly mechanics doing the work… need to find a trust worthy one…

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Intrested in a turn key 450 HP 304? Right drive line it will go 11’s in a VS

Im about to sell up very soon.

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

potentially yes…. tell me about it, and why are you getting rid of it?

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[vs manta 218Participant Vs hsv manta View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 796]

LSA motor, great platform to start from

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

If your half serious PM. but please don’t waste my time if your not.

 

Ive ve had to many people do that. Only reason for sale is I’m buying another car.

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

LSA only $10k http://www.holmart.com.au/online/prod1782.htm

I was more thinking the tried and prooven path. Not much of a trail blazer, but hey we can all dream.

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[vs manta 218Participant Vs hsv manta View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 796]

That is a lot of work, it’s gear box change, wiring harness, ecu, fuel pump, fitting exhaust to it, tune, and so on

Cavas motor would be very simple easy change over and if you have to pay people to do the work that will add up quickly

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

yep I agree… I think the LS path is beyond what I’m willing to get into.

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

LS swap is certainly way easier now a few of us have done it, there are pretty much no unknowns now. But its not cheap and its not for the faint hearted. The big issue is if its a straight LS1 swap its reasonably easy and simple, BUT if you then chase some more HP (lets face it who doesn’t) the supporting mods start to add up

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

I’m looking at turn key sale.

engine sump to filter

headers

tune

braided line and catch can

you will need the same fuel pump I used Walbro gss342. Some simple re routing of wiring. Just to new sensor positions with the changed manifold Will fire and drive off. It could be done in the drive way in a weekend.

6k will own it.

There is over $1500 in the braid and catch can alone….Speedflow.

Went 114mph in a 3600lb vehicle.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 1 month ago by  cava454.

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

Can you guys shed any light on why you went the way you did and what other options you considered?

LS sounds awesome, but the only way I see it working is buying a written off car (with no engine damage).

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

I take you have read this? I wrote it up a while back, its a good start http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vrvs-ls-engine-conversion-general-information/

For me, it was moving to a platform that had a lot of potential to go mental down the track. My dream was (still is) to have a genuine 1,000hp (flywheel) street registered legal car. I just couldn’t see that happening with an old technology block like a 308 without it being cranky and temperamental as hell. I admit back then I didn’t know about the Little paw blocks mentioned above. Although I will say if your going to drop big $$ on one of those, you may as well buy an RHS LS style block… I will also say at the risk of being accused of being a hair dresser, I also wanted the wow factor. If you are making 7/800HP you are going to be spending 20 grand plus or minus whatever you do. So for that sort of money I wanted something that when you lifted the bonnet it had some wank factor. Then also I am a huge fan of NA. Its a personal thing, but to me there is a purity about making big numbers NA. No 355 NA will go even close to a LSx454 NA, so put all that together that’s why I went the way I did. Lots of ways to skin a cat though….Thats only my personal opinion.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 1 month ago by  VRSenator065.

[SSEN8R VS #1081Participant Brisbane, North Side\'97 VS II HSV Senator 185i View build HERE Member since: March 16, 2015 Posts: 227]

Cheers Gary – Yes I have read that post and it has made me have a second thought on the LS option. If I could just swap out the 304 for stock 300kw (flywheel) LS motor for reasonable price I would jump at that upgrade. Need to keep an eye out.

Has anyone here gone down the stroker path? And would they just go the LS path if they had their time again? Or was it as easy as it just changing the crank, rods and pistons (yeah right)?

My build thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-ii-senator-185i-1081/
My track day thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/lakeside-track-sprint-day-second-go/
My VS brake upgrade thread - http://www.commodoresplus.com.au/forums/topic/vs-brake-upgrades/

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Never that easy.

 

Stock ls are boring….

[Narva*2010Participant Narva*2010VC Commodore View build HERE Member since: March 5, 2015 Posts: 87]

I’ve gone the Holden stroker option.  Nope, going LS never entered my mind.  I don’t regret it at all.  It’s not as easy as just swapping out the crank unfortunately.  I depends what stroke you want, what conrod you want and thereis a bit of block work to do.

Pre E85, my N/A Holden stroker made 630 fwhp / 470kw and just under 500lbft.  WPN 383 is running 9’s consistently with his 383 N/A Holden. He’s on the path to mid 9’s too.

You need to think out the combination carefully.  You’ll get the Holden to match any LS.   It does take extra coin.  If I was to start again, I would use a TP Holden 427ci base I reckon.  They weren’t around when I started my build.

Just my 2 cents

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

^always good to hear other peoples real world experiences. At the end of the day it (like so much about cars) comes down to personal taste/preference etc. First gens are quite a bit lighter than 2nd gens though, its a guess only, but what would you think your engine would run in a VR/S IRS rear, low 10’s?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 1 month ago by  VRSenator065.

[vs manta 218Participant Vs hsv manta View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 796]

Iv gone down the blowen stroked holden path, I admit it did cost a few $$$ but I could have done it cheaper if I didnt want it so flash

I would point you in that direction as well, just a strong bottom end in 304, cam lifters springs and rocker upgrade on top end and a wripple blower like a yells terra blower or something is what I would do if I wanted the cheapest way to go about it but have something very very fun to drive

[Narva*2010Participant Narva*2010VC Commodore View build HERE Member since: March 5, 2015 Posts: 87]

<span style=”color: #555555; font-family: Oxygen, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 20px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>^always good to hear other peoples real world experiences. At the end of the day it (like so much about cars) comes down to personal taste/preference etc. First gens are quite a bit lighter than 2nd gens though, its a guess only, but what would you think your engine would run in a VR/S IRS rear, low 10’s?</span>

Not sure Gary.  There is a bloke with a burnt orange VR / VS Senator with a centrifugal blower on it.  From memory, he has close to my fwhp at the rear wheels.  He is running low 11’s.  Yeah, yours is a fair bit heavier than the early commodores.  With that sort of power around the 350rwkw, (from what I’ve seen at the track) anything in second gen Commodores are in the 11’s.

My set up in a second gen Commodore (only guessing) would be mid to low 11’s.

But obviously there are soo many variables.  There seems to be issues in getting the power down with the IRS.  I have a 4 link rear with 295’s so getting the power down is a little easier.

A VE with 600 rwhp I raced against was running consistant 11.2 at Calder.  His mph was way up though.

 

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Thanks, yea one of the things on my to do list is to take the car and get it weighed. I reckon if I got mine to hook up as it sits now maybe low 11, hopefully when I have done head/cam/headers will push it into high 10’s, that would be enough for me. Definitely love to see a bit more of a thread started on your car mate, lots of us on here I’m sure would love to follow it. The idea behind this forum was real cars built or even just modified by regular guys. Nice car.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 1 month ago by  VRSenator065.

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Mine weighed in at 3600lb on the dot with me in it. Straight from the track.

 

304 was good enough for 12.2@ 114mph with a shitty 1.8 60ft. I was pretty pumped. With some minor changes and 4.11 it should dip into the 11’s.

Same me combo in an early girl or VN, would already be deep into the 11’s.

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