HomeForumsTechnical – GeneralSuspensionImproving VR Steering

This topic contains 57 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of VRSenator065 VRSenator065 3 years ago.

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  • #20410
    Profile photo of VS 355 UTE
    VS 355 UTE
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    Member since: January 13, 2016
    Posts: 141

    I had vague off centre steering,suppose i just accepted it as how a 20 year old car behaves.At this stage i had the usual king/koni combo.Added adj sway bars and had a play with different settings.I found the harder i went on the settings the sharper the steering became.31mm setting was too harsh so didn’t bother with 32mm hole.30mm or the standard position had no steering play at all when turning into corner but if i hit a decent bump in the road it transferred it across to the other side.So i settled on the softest 29mm hole and had a small play in the steering but a better ride quality.Installed coil overs now, so will go back and try different settings.Anyway have a play around with your settings Senator,each hole is a big step.

    VR-VS don’t have a lot of caster apparently,adj rods let you move wheels forward until they touch inner guard.Makes for very direct steering.Steering wheel will come back to centre quickly if you take your hands off.Makes steering heavier but no big deal with power steering.I like it a lot,especially at speed.

    I reckon these cars can handle pretty good for what they are.Mine should be a dog with a heavy cast iron V8 up front and nothing out the back but it holds it own against similar type sedans.

     

    #20412
    Profile photo of VRSenator065
    VRSenator065
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    • Adelaide SA
    • VR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project)

    • View build HERE
    Member since: February 17, 2015
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    Just waiting on conformation from my engineer those adjustable rods are road legal here in SA, if they are i am going to try a pair.

    #23016
    Profile photo of OZ38
    OZ38
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    Member since: April 24, 2016
    Posts: 59

    Just waiting on conformation from my engineer those adjustable rods are road legal here in SA, if they are i am going to try a pair.

    Did you ever get an answer back on the adjustable castor rods ? I bought & fitted the Whiteline kit which has stamped on the side of the rods “Race Use Only”. So gather they are not legally acceptable on street cars. :hmmm:

    I went from a standard castor of around 4 degrees up to just over 6 degrees before the tyres started rubbing on the front inner guard plastic when wheel is turned to full lock (17×8″ VT SS Alloys with 235/45/17 tyres).

    I want more Castor than I currently can get from the Z-bars, so am looking at the adjustable K-MAC Camber/Caster Top Kits (Stage 3 Full Race),

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Commodore-VR-VS-Front-Camber-Caster-kit-Stage-3-FULL-RACE-201616-3L-/131786032651?hash=item1eaf0f460b

    To try for about 8 -10 degrees caster & bring the front wheels back into the centre of the guard arc.

    Concerns I have are a few people on other forums are saying they are to harsh being solid mounting. Breaking welds around the towers when used on a daily streeter. Has anyone who uses them now got any feed back on them, VR Senator 065 maybe ?

    Have been told they may make a softer version which will still give you the adjustment required ?

    Cheers

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Profile photo of OZ38 OZ38.
    #23019
    Profile photo of Immortality
    Immortality
    Participant
    Member since: August 31, 2015
    Posts: 532

    The Springs/shocks and wheels should be doing the work of absorbing the humps and bumps of the road.  The mounting bushes are to isolate the suspension from the chassis to minimise NVH.

    I think you are referring to that thread on the PCM hacking forum, if that is the case his argument about a car breaking welds is a dirt track car that gets totally thrashed across big ruts running very low tyre pressures.  Low tyre pressures will assist with increasing traction but aren’t going to help absorb big hits on ruts as the tyre will deform and allow the rim to take the hit.  I also wouldn’t be surprised if it’s turned the odd lap with a deflated tyre which would totally compound the issue.

    If the suspension is set up correctly and it’s not bottoming out and hitting the bump stops continuously than it shouldn’t be busting welds.  Welds do break from flex (or rather the parent metal cracks around the weld), stop the flex and the welds will last.

    #23020
    Profile photo of OZ38
    OZ38
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    Member since: April 24, 2016
    Posts: 59

    I think you are referring to that thread on the PCM hacking forum, if that is the case his argument about a car breaking welds is a dirt track car that gets totally thrashed across big ruts running very low tyre pressures.  

    Yeah that’s the one. Did not realise they were talking about a dirt track car, as he just said track car & I immediately though bitumen road races.

    #23021
    Profile photo of Immortality
    Immortality
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    Member since: August 31, 2015
    Posts: 532

    Definitely is.  It’s just not worth debating with the user as he fairly much is never wrong, even when he is…..

    I think a lot of Commodores that have issues with broken welds in the strut towers are cars that are lowered poorly which means the bump stop gets hit a lot and that would transfer the load to the strut towers.

    I like fitting strut braces as it reduces the strut tower flex.  I believe it also reduces the stress of large impacts because the strut towers are tied together so it allows the loads to be transferred through the strut brace rather than all the load been applied to the single strut tower which would then flex.

    #23024
    Profile photo of cava454
    cava454
    Moderator
    Member since: February 20, 2015
    Posts: 2 362
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    It’s amazing how much a strut brace actaully does.

    #23030
    Profile photo of VS 355 UTE
    VS 355 UTE
    Participant
    Member since: January 13, 2016
    Posts: 141

    Have the adj caster arms and kmac strut tops.Max of +8 caster.Wheel will still be forward of guard center if you want the most caster possible.

    #23040
    Profile photo of OZ38
    OZ38
    Participant
    Member since: April 24, 2016
    Posts: 59

    Have the adj caster arms and kmac strut tops.Max of +8 caster.Wheel will still be forward of guard center if you want the most caster possible.

    Thanks for the reply.

    So think I will do it as well. +8 would be good to get even if I have to settle for the resulting wheel position forward of guard centre.

    #23345
    Profile photo of OZ38
    OZ38
    Participant
    Member since: April 24, 2016
    Posts: 59

    Just waiting on conformation from my engineer those adjustable rods are road legal here in SA, if they are i am going to try a pair.

    Did you ever get an answer back on the adjustable castor rods ? I bought & fitted the Whiteline kit which has stamped on the side of the rods “Race Use Only”. So gather they are not legally acceptable on street cars. :hmmm:

    I went from a standard castor of around 4 degrees up to just over 6 degrees before the tyres started rubbing on the front inner guard plastic when wheel is turned to full lock (17×8″ VT SS Alloys with 235/45/17 tyres).

    I want more Castor than I currently can get from the Z-bars, so am looking at the adjustable K-MAC Camber/Caster Top Kits (Stage 3 Full Race),

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Commodore-VR-VS-Front-Camber-Caster-kit-Stage-3-FULL-RACE-201616-3L-/131786032651?hash=item1eaf0f460b

    To try for about 8 -10 degrees caster & bring the front wheels back into the centre of the guard arc.

    Concerns I have are a few people on other forums are saying they are to harsh being solid mounting. Breaking welds around the towers when used on a daily streeter. Has anyone who uses them now got any feed back on them, VR Senator 065 maybe ?

    Have been told they may make a softer version which will still give you the adjustment required ?

    Cheers

    Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

    #23551
    Profile photo of IJ.
    IJ.
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    Member since: April 2, 2015
    Posts: 3 210
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    Bit late to the party on this one but a few observations, Holden Front end geometry is terrible, for some reason they engineered a ton of Bump Steer into the design when I built the Lexcen front end I wasn’t able to do anything about is due to the engine to rack clearance so I made a couple of correctors and used Rod ends, it now has minimal Bump steer and is so much better for it.

    The Next thing is Holden’s version of variable ratio steering… it’s HORRID, they use a rack with different tooth spacing at the ends to change the ratio off centre and then Twist the Rack to keep the correct tooth contact patch giving the weird off center transition feel..

    In the Lexcen I use a Steering quickener so it’s blows through the transition and you barely notice it but the nicer way to do it is what I did in the Tonner was to use a Linear Rack, again a huge improvement in steering feel, could do with being a quicker ratio but it’s a huge fat long car so it’s never going to be nimble.

    It would be nice to find a Linear Rack that we could use in the earlier cars, maybe one day I’ll get off my but and source something that’ll work but for now I’m happy with what I’ve done.

    Strut braces, the Bigger more solid it is the more of an effect it’ll have as the towers on these cars are a bowl of Jelly..

    Adjustable Strut tops, something with a positive location once locked up is a must, I tried the Whiteline setup and found it moved around a lot no matter how hard you bolted it down.

    Castor is good, can’t see any reason why adjustable Castor arms wouldn’t be legal as they’re totally bolt in, lots of castor may mean it’s a bit less nimble in the tight stuff but high speed it’s brilliant.

    Sway Bars, on the adjustable bars the first hole is stiff the last hole is soft, the key here is balance so you need a rear bar that will compliment the front, if not you’ll end up with an under steering pig.

    #23600
    Profile photo of OZ38
    OZ38
    Participant
    Member since: April 24, 2016
    Posts: 59

    Bit late to the party on this one but a few observations, Holden Front end geometry is terrible, for some reason they engineered a ton of Bump Steer into the design when I built the Lexcen front end I wasn’t able to do anything about is due to the engine to rack clearance so I made a couple of correctors and used Rod ends, it now has minimal Bump steer and is so much better for it. The Next thing is Holden’s version of variable ratio steering… it’s HORRID, they use a rack with different tooth spacing at the ends to change the ratio off centre and then Twist the Rack to keep the correct tooth contact patch giving the weird off center transition feel.. In the Lexcen I use a Steering quickener so it’s blows through the transition and you barely notice it but the nicer way to do it is what I did in the Tonner was to use a Linear Rack, again a huge improvement in steering feel, could do with being a quicker ratio but it’s a huge fat long car so it’s never going to be nimble. It would be nice to find a Linear Rack that we could use in the earlier cars, maybe one day I’ll get off my but and source something that’ll work but for now I’m happy with what I’ve done. Strut braces, the Bigger more solid it is the more of an effect it’ll have as the towers on these cars are a bowl of Jelly.. Adjustable Strut tops, something with a positive location once locked up is a must, I tried the Whiteline setup and found it moved around a lot no matter how hard you bolted it down. Castor is good, can’t see any reason why adjustable Castor arms wouldn’t be legal as they’re totally bolt in, lots of castor may mean it’s a bit less nimble in the tight stuff but high speed it’s brilliant. Sway Bars, on the adjustable bars the first hole is stiff the last hole is soft, the key here is balance so you need a rear bar that will compliment the front, if not you’ll end up with an under steering pig.

    Speaking of Linear Racks.

    I also owe a VY Ute which I have spent a little on improving the handling / steering. Even with Strut Brace (OEM), Whiteline 30mm Front Sway bar & Pedders Xa Extreme Coilovers all round. I found it felt nervous in the steering at speeds over 145kmh. Not sure if it was a bump steer thing I was feeling or what, just not sure-footed on the country roads. I hate saying it but a lot of the older Fords (XR-XT-XW-XY & so on) felt so much better a high speeds, you could just about fall asleep at the wheel as you felt that comfortable with the steering/ handling.

    While digging around on Holden Parts lists I found the VY Maloo Ute’s got a Linear Rack fitted.  A weird part number as it started with SV- & then about 5 numbers, so guessing the SV meant Special Vehicle. About 8 years ago you could still buy one through GMH if you had the correct VIN number to show you owed an Original HSV. It had to be a special order through our states GMH parts (AMCAP) supplier. A good friend inside AMCAP said he could wave the required VIN check if I wanted one ordered, I never went ahead with it at the time as the price ($1080.00) was a little high for me to justify.

    I suppose after all this time they would no longer be available.

    #23626
    Profile photo of IJ.
    IJ.
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    Member since: April 2, 2015
    Posts: 3 210
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    Yep the Linear racks when they were available are just so much nicer, when I had the Blower engine in the Tonner it would happily Cruise at 200+ on a closed test track, very stable and planted!

    #23635
    Profile photo of VRSenator065
    VRSenator065
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    • Adelaide SA
    • VR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project)

    • View build HERE
    Member since: February 17, 2015
    Posts: 5 696
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    Did you boys and girls see this come out this week?  And no I actually never did go through with my engineer about the adjustable castor arms.  Sort of fell off the twig priority wise.

     

    #23637
    Profile photo of IJ.
    IJ.
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    Member since: April 2, 2015
    Posts: 3 210
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    Yeah saw those Gary, if they have the geometry correct it’ll be a MASSIVE improvement, double A Arm is a sweet setup!

    #23642
    Profile photo of VRSenator065
    VRSenator065
    Participant
    • Adelaide SA
    • VR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project)

    • View build HERE
    Member since: February 17, 2015
    Posts: 5 696
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    Looks nice, but also as you say all depends on the geometry.  But also be interesting to see the rack they run.  Interesting thought to do away with the majority of the strut towers, might make running the exhaust etc a lot easier?

    #23644
    Profile photo of IJ.
    IJ.
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    Member since: April 2, 2015
    Posts: 3 210
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    Saw a few pics of it fitted and looks like it pretty much fill up the towers so I doubt you’d gain much room.

    I would hope they got it right but years ago I helped a mate fit up their EH SBC kit and it wasn’t great…

    #23645
    Profile photo of VRSenator065
    VRSenator065
    Participant
    • Adelaide SA
    • VR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project)

    • View build HERE
    Member since: February 17, 2015
    Posts: 5 696
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    Yea they have a terrible rep for poor fitment generally, although I believe their later stuff is better.

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